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r/valueinvestingr/valueinvesting· u/AggressiveAd9058· 1d agoDiscussion 0

Microsoft trading at historically low PEs is not a free money signal. There is some important context bulls seem to be overlooking.

Investor summaryBearish

Author argues MSFT's low PE is justified by depressed FCF margins from massive AI CapEx, challenging the bullish full-stack AI thesis.

Bull points
  • Agentic computing is inevitable and MSFT is best positioned to capture value across all enterprise layers.
  • MSFT owns the complete full stack (infrastructure, data, apps, governance) with no matching competitor.
  • Strong AI monetization shown by $37B AI ARR (123% YoY) and 25M Copilot paid seats (250% YoY).
Bear points
  • FCF margin dropped to 19% from historical 30-35% due to massive $31.9B quarterly CapEx.
  • Market skepticism is reflected in the stock falling to $370 and trading at a near-historical low PE of 21x.
  • Valuation multiples will remain compressed until FCF recovers meaningfully and consistently from heavy AI investments.
MSFTAI 资本开支
Post body

Management's main thesis (that bulls are heavily buying into) is that the shift to agentic computing is inevitable, and Microsoft is perhaps the best positioned to capture value at every layer amid this transition.

The argument runs like this.

  1. Agents are becoming the dominant enterprise workload
  2. Every company will eventually need infrastructure to run them, (as well as data to ground them, applications to deploy them, and governance to control them.)
  3. Microsoft owns all four layers (Azure for infrastructure, Fabric and Foundry for data and model orchestration, M365 and GitHub for applications, and Agent 365 for governance.)
  4. No competitor has that full stack.

That's of course very tempting to buy into, on paper. Management continuously points to the $37 billion AI ARR figure which grew at 123% YoY, and the fact that Microsoft Copilot Paid seats grew by 250% YoY to 25 million users.

All that is great. If you believe management, Microsoft WILL inevitably become that operating system of the agentic enterprise, just as it did in the dot com era.

The problem is that the market isn't buying this at face value, and that's worth looking into. The stock has fallen to $370 (almost the same price it was at in November 2021), and its PE ratio of 21x is nearly a historical low for the company.

If management's thesis is so rock solid, why would we be seeing sucha discount on the stock?

Here's my two cents.

First (and the main one really) is the FCF problem, which i think is the loudest concern. Microsoft generated $15.8 billion in FCF on $82.9 billion in revenue this quarter (a 19% FCF margin). Historically that number was closer to 30-35% for Microsoft. This margin is depressed because of $31.9 billion being spent this quarter on CapEx alone, and the the market is being asked to trust that this massive quarterly CapEx will eventually earn its return. Until FCF recovers meaningfully and consistently, I'm pretty sure the multiple will stay compressed because you cannot value a company on ARR growth alone forever. Investors want to see the cash show up.

What makes this even more troublesome is that hyperscalers like Google and Amazon aren't standing still. Both are investing at comparable CapEx levels, both have credible AI infrastructure stories, and Google in particular has a strong argument around model quality with Gemini. Microsoft's narrative implies that enterprise AI workloads will consolidate onto just one hyperscaler. Instead, it's a very real possibility that enterprises run multi-cloud AI strategies and Microsoft captures a third of the opportunity rather than half. That is a very different valuation outcome.

Second, I think management is being weirdly vague about some of the metrics its sharing. Its spoken quite a bit about the 20 million Copilot seats, but I would appreciate some more granular details like revenue per seat, and if consumption revenue is materializing on top of it. Some of us fear that seat growth is real but the monetization depth is a lot more shallow than they would have us think. By this I mean that enterprises are buying Copilot but not using it intensively enough to drive the consumption revenue that justifies the growth multiple. Management not revealing this is suspect because its central to the entire thesis they are selling us.

Third is declining gross margins. I think this is something the market is seeing as a structural deterioration, and needs to be addressed.

Fourth, Microsoft has a very weirdly complex relationship with OpenAI contractually, structurally, and competitively. This is problematic because it brings a major dependancy risk to Microsoft's AI ARR story. I imagine there are a numebr of things that could cause OpenAI to shift its trajectory. This could be a competitive setback, commercial agreement restructuring, or a deterioration in model quality relative to Anthropic or Google.

Finally, we need to keep in mind that enterprise software buying cycles are long. If the economy softens, large-seat Copilot commitments are exactly the kind of discretionary spend that gets pushed to the right. So the market may also be pricing in some probability that the Q3 seat growth numbers represent a pull-forward rather than a run rate.

I'm not saying I'd bet agaisnt Microsoft, or even for it right now. My point is that the market may have a point, and those who think this is simply a case of "the market is being dumb" could not be factoring in everything about the stock.

Anyway, the stock is on my radar. I'm neither long nor short at the moment. I'm watching about 20ish milestones to play out, and then I'd decide if management's thesis is actually close to playing out.

Discussion · top comments15 selected
u/Zealousideal-Ant9548 1· 4h ago

I also heard an interesting point that RSUs create new shares and thus dilute the pool.  Without buybacks the per share price may drop further.

u/mynameisntziming 1· 4h ago

Exactly. No one has provided a strong enough argument to support WHY the capex is bad. Zuck has explained this quite well already: the risk of not spending enough is much greater than spending too much. Even more so in MSFT’s position than META’s. Not spending enough is submitting to certain loss in the part of this AI race that’s is their core business.

And also, they can afford to spend the amount they are right now.

u/SuperSultan 1· 4h ago

Right, because there is no need to “enhance” their products with AI.

It’s like adding premium Fiji water to every meal. Unnecessary.

u/SuperSultan 1· 4h ago

Can you explain what you mean by “enterprise AI platform?” You don’t really need AI in Entra ID (Active Directory) nor GitHub, nor SQL.

Entra is part of Open Identity Connect framework, it’s just a layer of authentication (“how do I know who you are?”) which sits on top of authorization (“do actually have permission to access this resource?”) It achieves both layers by sending tokens back and forth between client and server to verify authN and authZ. Not sure how throwing AI into that mix can help.

GitHub doesn’t really need AI. It’s just a means of storing code remotely. Throwing AI onto it is not better than just asking Copilot.

SQL is a data sublanguage. I guess you can throw AI into that to get it to analyze queries based on the data in the database but you still can use copilot.

Microsoft Defender could probably use some inference to determine if things are threats

Microsoft 365 could help you scaffold some projects in Word, PowerPoint, or Excel.

However, Microsoft is overpaying for these extra capabilities and shareholders may suffer from this excessive spending. I don’t think Claude will replace any of Microsoft’s core products though. The best models are banned by the government(s) too so it’s harder to vibe code your own Microsoft clone product.

Anyhow, no need to downvote me. I’m not a bear but I’m someone who just wants to learn more. Currently buying META over MSFT but interested.

u/Fearless-Tooth6053 1· 5h ago

You think a 30% drop reflects pricing in some risk...in your opinion? Well...duh?

u/mynameisntziming 1· 5h ago

Exactly. This obvious point is missed by OP. The biggest concern - CAPEX is entirely in their own control. They are spending because they can, and they are in the business of monetizing that over years. Risk to not spend enough is much greater than risk of spending too much, in MSFT’s position. Zuck has articulate that point well already.

u/Fearless-Tooth6053 1· 5h ago

Wtf are you talking about? What is the hole? They've been growing solid double digits forever.

u/WritewayHome 1· 5h ago
What is the hole?

No Moats where they are the clear leader and a future is undeniably in their sights.

A ship can travel very quickly with a small hole but eventually it will sink.

I don't see MSFT anywhere near contention amongst its peers in the next decade and the stock price reflects that, as does investor sentiment.

Stocks look to the future, not the past.

u/Fearless-Tooth6053 1· 4h ago

Not in contention with their peers? Who are their peers? AWS and Google? Ms is far more entrenched in the enterprise than either of those. Will they be the outright winner? Who knows. But I dont see how you can say you dont see them anywhere near contention. And nobody can predict the future. But the past is probably the best indicator of the future. Right now its all guesses, and things change fast. Wasn't that long ago when Google was in the dumps because they wouldn't be able to compete with msft/oai.

u/Fearless-Tooth6053 1· 5h ago

Well, its not free for all competition, its an oligopoly, so my expectation is they'll all raise prices together, and significantly so.

u/Fearless-Tooth6053 1· 5h ago

Ive heard a lot of good things about gitpilot...

u/GDEmerald 1· 2h ago

Starting June 1st their token model changed a lot and it became much more expensive then the alternatives. Like 30x more. I have to remind myself that this is an investing sub though. Just speaking from personal experience.

u/Loose-Impact-5840 1· 5h ago

Same

u/Nay_120 1· 6h ago

Here we go the full port signal #inversevalueinvesting

u/captainjeansmodel 1· 7h ago

You’re welcome!

I work in Tech so maybe I overestimate how much the normal person stays up to date with this kinda news.